Curse

MisterB · Feb 15, 2010, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Guild Wars PvE was designed as a multiplayer or single player game: read the box.

ANet doesn't care if players can enter an area solo and kill things, but they take steps when farming produces rewards that far exceed normal play. When they take those steps seems to be a matter of degree of efficiency. If a farm is 10x more profitable or more(This number is pulled out of nowhere.), they take steps to slow it down, or they try to.

Arguing that solo farming is not how the game is designed is irrelevant. If ANet really wanted to stop it, they could require fixed party size. That has not happened, because they don't care if you farm.

Trip555 · Feb 16, 2010, 06:52 AM // 06:52

The 600/Perma nerf is now overdue for 3 month.
I don't believe in it.

Most likely A-Net found out that Foundry is only doable at decent failrates as a Trio and you cannot do Horseman without a heavy tank.

toocooltang · Feb 16, 2010, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trip555

The 600/Perma nerf is now overdue for 3 month.
I don't believe in it.

Most likely A-Net found out that Foundry is only doable at decent failrates as a Trio and you cannot do Horseman without a heavy tank.

I am pretty sure the reaper is a good tank, and foundry is easily done in 20 minutes in Hm with out perma sins

Trinity Fire Angel · Feb 16, 2010, 01:13 PM // 13:13

it would be nice if they could allow henchies in ToA. Then it would be possible to do UW or FoW solo (not as a perma) but to not have to look for a PUG. Cause really, how many people out there have had the experience of a really bad PUG before?

Actually, there is a second entrance to UW that is actually in the environment and not from an outpost. I must try to see if i can take henchies in with me. I only wish there was a FoW entrance in the environment (or is there?). At least that would allow us to take henchies along with a few heros.

Come to think of it... some henchies for DoA would be nice too. Nothing sucks more than DoA. Even Codex arena has more people than DoA in all the districts combined.. now that is sad.

EDIT:
-----0

Not that i have ever done UW before (never any balanced PUG's) but i just realised that it can;t be done solo because of that quest where you need a tank in another area. One reason why Obsidian Flesh needs to stay is for some of the quests in FoW am i right? Earth Tanks? At least with an earth tank, its not a "speed" clear. LOL

this is where they went wrong with Shadow Form. no dmg from anything at all except AoE.... every other spell or melee protection has its downside. I see no downside to Perma-sin.

Reformed · Feb 16, 2010, 02:20 PM // 14:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trinity Fire Angel

snip

You can't take henchies in from anywhere, it's been tried. I could see FoW easily being done H/H, UW would take a little more knowledge but DoA with stock henchies simply isn't going to happen. You don't need ObFlesh to beat FoW at all, you could run a casual 2+6 with a friend and beat it easily. As far as FoWSC goes it'll still be there but take probably 2-3x longer than now. We all just reset to 2007 or so is all.

FyrFytr998 · Feb 16, 2010, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Okay, CNY is done. Where's the nerfs? I have a sneaky suspicion that ANET is gonna drop a post soon saying that the update is being pushed back yet again.

ThomOfDeath · Feb 16, 2010, 09:29 PM // 21:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by FyrFytr998

Okay, CNY is done. Where's the nerfs? I have a sneaky suspicion that ANET is gonna drop a post soon saying that the update is being pushed back yet again.

Well, if I'm right there isn't going to be an event now until Easter's Golden Eggs, so if they can't complete it by then...

reaper with no name · Feb 16, 2010, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mcsnake85

(First of all sorry for my bad english, i try write better as i can)
I think that everyone need a choice...
Play in team is cool, but if i want play alone no one must say "no you cant"...
SF need to be nerf?Ok agree...but give me a Fireball that can cause a lot of damage and a way to take enemies down.."GOD MODE" is necessary if THEY DONT GIVE US skill to fight,if they give us good skill to deal massive damage no one need SF to play, all take sf because all skills dont deal damage.
Take for example Tombs...Dryders deal me 180 damage with a fireball,that mean they need 3/4 fireball to kill a player with 600 hp...try to cast a fireball to a dryder : you can deal at max 100 damage and im sure their hp are not 600.
My point of view is simple : no one cry for SF if you can take down a mob in 3/4 skills like they do with you (FOR NM...In HM its a different thing)...
I dont understand what wrong with GW...Mobs are stronger even in NM,sometimes you cant face 1 vs 1 because thee kill you...if ppl scam you, they ban for weeks and dont give back items, skills SUCKS and those that work good risk to be nerfed...sometimes do do thing you need help to do things, and if ppl dont help you you are F****D because you cant do all alone...Heroes suck hard and discord cant resolve all your problems...
Really guyz,this is so sad...if they want nerf SF who care?BUT GIVE US SOME DAMAGE SKILLS...

Monsters are not more powerful than players. On the contrary, players are far more powerful than monsters.

Do monsters have more armor, more HP, more energy, faster spellcasting, etc? Certainly. But they also have terrible builds full of useless skills, exploitable AI, and almost no synergy with one another. They also don't have the advantage of being able to predict what they're going to go up against and plan their builds accordingly. To top it all off, you only have to beat the monsters once to "win". They don't get that advantage.

For one moment, imagine what it would be like if you had to play as a monster (with their AI and builds, of course):

You've got over a thousand HP, and 100 armor. You're 10 levels above the players, so you get easy crits while they struggle to get even one. You see a squishy monk, which, because it is squishy, you are compelled to attack, regardless of whether or not it is the smart thing to do. You swing your mighty hammer, fully expecting to deal 100+ damage, and...

It's blocked. Crap, he's got aegis up. You swing again. Nope. It's still up.

About 10 swings later (half of which were blocked, and half of which were redbarred to meaninglessness), aegis runs out. "Awesome," you think. "Now I'll show him." Then you attack.

50 damage. Looks like he had protective spirit up.

And that's when you notice that in the time you wasted on the monk, your entire party was wiped out. Your party didn't have prot. Or even monks, for that matter.

Then the attention of the players turns to you...

Quote:

Originally Posted by enter_the_zone

Because, as seems to be Anet policy, anything a bit fun must be mercilessly nerfed into obscurity. Bye bye XTH, bye bye Ursan (and about 50 other things I can't remember right now), bye bye perma, bye bye 600, bye bye players, bye bye GW.

GG QQers, GG Live Team.. objective achieved, switching servers to hosting Aion and GW2

I can still spike away 1/3 of a warrior's health in 4 seconds at range with my AoG Archer build while getting almost 100 health out of the deal. Your argument is invalid.

Exploits are not the only thing in the game that is fun. In fact (as in every game), exploits are believed to reduce fun, because they remove the alternatives as an effective tactic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

But that doesn't make any sense.

Once again, solo play != soloing areas. That's why they made heroes.

Also, making the game more (or leaving it as) exploitable is counterproductive to player retention. There are two core groups forming GW's playerbase. The first is people who play it because it's free (very few of these people will leave because an exploit was fixed). The second is people who, well, liked the game. This is the group that desires balance and hates grind. The way to keep the former group is to keep the game free. Check. To keep the latter group means (at the very least) trying to prevent the game from becoming more broken.

Like it or not, GW affects (and will continue to affect) people's perceptions of GW2. If Anet cannot do a good job with GW, it makes people not want to buy GW2. Being able to solo areas while invulnerable to almost everything monsters can throw at you makes Anet look incompetent, and causes people to question whether or not GW2 will be worth playing, since it'll "just be another meaningless farmfest". The majority of people don't like playing broken games. If they did, the monsters in every FPS wouldn't shoot back, and failure would be impossible.

By allowing exploits to remain, Anet alienates one of it's two core demographics, and risks damaging GW2's chances of success.

Kaleban · Feb 17, 2010, 03:52 AM // 03:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Once again, solo play != soloing areas. That's why they made heroes.

Also, making the game more (or leaving it as) exploitable is counterproductive to player retention. There are two core groups forming GW's playerbase. The first is people who play it because it's free (very few of these people will leave because an exploit was fixed). The second is people who, well, liked the game. This is the group that desires balance and hates grind. The way to keep the former group is to keep the game free. Check. To keep the latter group means (at the very least) trying to prevent the game from becoming more broken.

Like it or not, GW affects (and will continue to affect) people's perceptions of GW2. If Anet cannot do a good job with GW, it makes people not want to buy GW2. Being able to solo areas while invulnerable to almost everything monsters can throw at you makes Anet look incompetent, and causes people to question whether or not GW2 will be worth playing, since it'll "just be another meaningless farmfest". The majority of people don't like playing broken games. If they did, the monsters in every FPS wouldn't shoot back, and failure would be impossible.

By allowing exploits to remain, Anet alienates one of it's two core demographics, and risks damaging GW2's chances of success.

Well, first off its agreed that HOW ANet handles GW1 will affect players perceptions of GW2. And you're right, if they can't do a good job with GW1, it will decrease the playerbase's faith in ANet and its future products.

The problem is, how do you define a "good job?" GW was billed as a game that emphasized skill over grind, and yet, since its inception GW has steadily become more and more grindy, to the point where the game has lost its meaning.

Consider this, WoW has a level cap of what 80 now? And it takes months and months of steady play, in a vast open world with a significantly larger playerbase. The amount of content is orders of magnitude larger than GW, and is not only better maintained, but also constantly updated and changed.

Now I'm not saying I want GW to go P2P, not only would the current system not really support such a model, the game itself is nowhere near worth a monthly fee.

But the problem lies with GW's design. A level cap that can be reached in a few steady hours of play, especially Canthan, and instant maxed PvP characters means a LOT of content can be bypassed or avoided. The ease of the game means replayability is not that high, and the lack of "jobs" for the characters (not professions like crafting, but specific roles for each character to play, such as tank, off-tank, nuker, main and secondary healers etc.) forces a rut of gameplay in which everything is balanced solely around classes that focus on healing, prot and damage. No stealth system for Sins, no real way to aggro and maintain it except by position etc.

The tl;dr version is GW was poorly conceived, riding a "free to play" wave to counter the inevitable backlash against poor maintenance and content updates. On top of that, GW has been poorly maintained, with slapdash "balance" updates and poorly thought out and implemented class additions that make the game feel bloated.

Yes you have hundreds of options and combinations, but the balance and design of the game makes it so that only a very few are ever very effective, especially given the average skill level of a random PUG.

As to the "meaningless farmfest" welcome to the world of MMORPGs. After the novelty has worn off and you've leveled a couple of characters and beaten the campaigns, thats all thats left, the search for more loot. You can PvP sure, and help guildies with their PvE, but for the player who has six or seven level 20s and a couple suits of FoW, GW doesn't offer anything NEW.

I'm sure some will mention their business model and how they're poor and suffering and like little Orphan Oliver just desire a little more gruel. Those people know nothing about business, and its safe to say that ANet's business practices and long term survival don't depend on costume sales, they're not Spencer's after all. The point is, for any persistent online game, just as in business, you must expand or fail, stagnation means death. GW has been stagnating for a while now, and as an informed consumer, my decision of whether to buy GW2 doesn't hinge on one single exploitable skill out of hundreds (there are many others btw), but instead on whether ANet can make their games FUN.

A single exploit skill doesn't remove fun, what does is a lack of replayability, lack of new and interesting content, under-developed storylines that make me want to beat my head in when I read the dialogue, etc.

ANet has the potential to not only make GW2 a great game, but to also inject new life and verve into GW1 to keep and increase the loyal playerbase. Their current path seems to be absolutely counter-intuitive though, with lackluster performance with their flagship game (series), terrible customer support, terri-bad handling of PR, swiss chesse like security and a host of other issues. All of which makes Shadow Form nearly a moot issue, and its detractors seem like infants.

FyrFytr998 · Feb 17, 2010, 04:50 AM // 04:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Well, first off its agreed......(Snipped)....... All of which makes Shadow Form nearly a moot issue, and its detractors seem like infants.

Great post. I used to think you were mildly irritating before, but you speak the truth.

Mcsnake85 · Feb 17, 2010, 08:13 AM // 08:13

Quote:

Monsters are not more powerful than players. On the contrary, players are far more powerful than monsters.

Do monsters have more armor, more HP, more energy, faster spellcasting, etc? Certainly. But they also have terrible builds full of useless skills, exploitable AI, and almost no synergy with one another. They also don't have the advantage of being able to predict what they're going to go up against and plan their builds accordingly. To top it all off, you only have to beat the monsters once to "win". They don't get that advantage.

For one moment, imagine what it would be like if you had to play as a monster (with their AI and builds, of course):

You've got over a thousand HP, and 100 armor. You're 10 levels above the players, so you get easy crits while they struggle to get even one. You see a squishy monk, which, because it is squishy, you are compelled to attack, regardless of whether or not it is the smart thing to do. You swing your mighty hammer, fully expecting to deal 100+ damage, and...

It's blocked. Crap, he's got aegis up. You swing again. Nope. It's still up.

About 10 swings later (half of which were blocked, and half of which were redbarred to meaninglessness), aegis runs out. "Awesome," you think. "Now I'll show him." Then you attack.

50 damage. Looks like he had protective spirit up.

And that's when you notice that in the time you wasted on the monk, your entire party was wiped out. Your party didn't have prot. Or even monks, for that matter.

Then the attention of the players turns to you...

I dont totaly agree...
Mobs have bad build ok,they move and do action with a limited AI (in other words they are stupid) and sometimes they kill themself...BTW they still do more damage then you,i can say triple damage.
The point is not how good are you or how good is your buil etc, the point is : you dont deal damage..
without other things in play if you and mob cast the same skill MOBS always win.Because it dont have only higher HP but higher damage and defense too,so you cant kill it..thanks god we can change skill,make a good build and solo kill something but not always is enough..
A monk as you said can do something more...a sin can do something more (with only critical build too, withou sf)..but other classes?And you think that some mobs dont have aegis or other thing to defend?
I was just compare base damage of (fireball) a skill without other things...
I have to be honest, i really dont like Shadow Form, but i use it, not always but when necessary...why?because with SF you can do a lot of farm and you are stronger than a mobs..just only because they cant hit you is a great advantage...
If they update some skill and make mobs die more easy, the first thing i do is give a kick in the a** to my sin...because NO ONE NEED God mode if you can kill MOBS IN 4/5 SKILLS....and i want to say just another thing, i dont pretend to apply this in HM, but just NM.

4thVariety · Feb 17, 2010, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Normal Mode players REACT, Hard Mode players have to PREPARE.

In normal mode it is very easy to have one skill heal the damage of one "damage event" caused by monsters. Normal mode also gives you plenty time to react.

Hardmode does not give you the time to react to occurring damage, because by the time you enter the afteracast of a one second super-healing spell, the enemy will already have dealt his fatal second blow. AoE style to half the group if you are lucky. On top of that, your skills are most likely unable to counter the full impact the first wave of enemy attacks had on the group. To round it off, you might also get knocked down, or interrupted while providing a critical service to the continued existence of the group. WIPE.

This very inability to react, will cause all groups to create pre-emptive countermeasures. The more invincible the better. There are many many many of these invincible builds for every occasion. Shadow Form is merely the one everybody can understand. Changing it changes nothing.

Mcsnake85 · Feb 17, 2010, 11:43 AM // 11:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4thVariety

Normal Mode players REACT, Hard Mode players have to PREPARE.

In normal mode it is very easy to have one skill heal the damage of one "damage event" caused by monsters. Normal mode also gives you plenty time to react.

Hardmode does not give you the time to react to occurring damage, because by the time you enter the afteracast of a one second super-healing spell, the enemy will already have dealt his fatal second blow. AoE style to half the group if you are lucky. On top of that, your skills are most likely unable to counter the full impact the first wave of enemy attacks had on the group. To round it off, you might also get knocked down, or interrupted while providing a critical service to the continued existence of the group. WIPE.

This very inability to react, will cause all groups to create pre-emptive countermeasures. The more invincible the better. There are many many many of these invincible builds for every occasion. Shadow Form is merely the one everybody can understand. Changing it changes nothing.

Btw you cant solo NM some things too...In all RPGS you can solo things in NM (D1,D2,Sacred,Sacred Underworld,Sacred II and a lot of others) while in HM you need help like GW..but cant kill a group of mobs without prepare a build,without SF or other similar strategies is a BAD THING.
I agree HM must be HARD (lol its Hard Mode =P) but i really feel bad when i need ask help to do crap mission..good thing is that you have heroes,because without them you FORCED to ask help,so you can still do things in NM (not all btw).
So the real problem is not SF like 99% of player think, but mobs & damage...without SF but with good damage skills that (as i said 3 times) can kill mobs in 4/5 skills the game will be better...
I Have a question now :
You prefer Shadow Form or Fireball that cause 200 damage (instead 100) ?
You prefer Shadow Form or Pure Strike that cause 100 damage (instead 30+)?
You prefer Shadow Form or Roj that cause 100 damage (instead 48+)?

Arduin · Feb 17, 2010, 03:49 PM // 15:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mcsnake85

Btw you cant solo NM some things too...In all RPGS you can solo things in NM (D1,D2,Sacred,Sacred Underworld,Sacred II and a lot of others) while in HM you need help like GW..but cant kill a group of mobs without prepare a build,without SF or other similar strategies is a BAD THING.
I agree HM must be HARD (lol its Hard Mode =P) but i really feel bad when i need ask help to do crap mission..good thing is that you have heroes,because without them you FORCED to ask help,so you can still do things in NM (not all btw).
So the real problem is not SF like 99% of player think, but mobs & damage...without SF but with good damage skills that (as i said 3 times) can kill mobs in 4/5 skills the game will be better...
I Have a question now :
You prefer Shadow Form or Fireball that cause 200 damage (instead 100) ?
You prefer Shadow Form or Pure Strike that cause 100 damage (instead 30+)?
You prefer Shadow Form or Roj that cause 100 damage (instead 48+)?

You seem to forget GW is a teambased game. Sure a Dryder can hit you up to 180 damage with a Fireball, but with a competent Monk that damage is easily negated. You've got 8 people to kill a mob, 64 skills to bring in total.

If you are going to solo Tombs using SF, of course your damage pales in comparison to your foes, because you are using only 1/8th of your potential. 8 players using a 100 dmg fireball against a foe is better than 1 player using a 200 dmg fireball against a foe.

So are you seriously advocating you want Anet to buff the damage of skills, because you can't kill foes solo? Also don't forget the fireball that you want to buff to 200 dmg will also be buffed for your foes.

Gill Halendt · Feb 17, 2010, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mcsnake85

good thing is that you have heroes,because without them you FORCED to ask help

I don't see a problem with this. Ask for help, or play with heroes and learn to play better.

Dumbing the game down to "4/5 skills to kill a mob" is a terrible idea. It's already close to this thanks to some over-efficient team builds and poor game mechanics.

No thanks. More Protective Spirit on your heroes, please.

aspi · Feb 17, 2010, 04:48 PM // 16:48

So can this be done anytime soon? I am sick and tired of the sf form ecto hunters who outbid anyone with their stupid amount of ecto's.

Del · Feb 17, 2010, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

So can this be done anytime soon? I am sick and tired of the sf form ecto hunters who outbid anyone with their stupid amount of ecto's.

farmers don't make nearly as much as power traders, so i'm not sure why that's something to bitch about.

aspi · Feb 17, 2010, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Well I am sure that is something to bitch about.

Del · Feb 17, 2010, 06:50 PM // 18:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by aspi

Well I am sure that is something to bitch about.

Sure, if you're just hellbent on finding things to whine about.

Spookii · Feb 17, 2010, 07:01 PM // 19:01

I sort of wonder why these people QQing about wanting to play solo...are playing a MMO.

Massive...Multiplayer(?lol)

If you want to play a solo game, go play a solo game that doesn't connect you to the internet. GuildWars is more than an interactive chat system, believe it or not. ANet's main priority is to balance the game for group play, not solo play. They just happen to understand that sometimes, getting a large group of people together is not possible. And sometimes, you don't want to play with a large group of people. Thus, we have henchies and heroes, which is quite nice imo. Actual one-man builds are possible, but they should not dominate the game. Like I said, if you want to play alone, play something else. There are much better games than GW out there for that.